"There are always two sides. So if someone comes to us and tells us: 'We've got such a bad agency, nothing works with them, honestly...' Yeah, could be. But there are always two sides." - Sarah Lang, CEO of Hob by Horse
Commerce Famous Podcast, episode 18: Sarah Lang on being honest to your clients and yourself in the ecommerce industry
In this episode of the Commerce Famous Podcast, Sarah Lang, CEO of Hob by Horse, shares her agency's unwavering commitment to honesty in client interactions.
This enlightening conversation delves into Hob by Horse's unique approach to business, including their bold decision to reduce marketing spendings to zero at the start of the year. Lang discusses the strategic shift towards content-driven client acquisition and how transparency and honesty have been pivotal in building trust and fostering long-lasting relationships. This episode not only highlights the importance of integrity in commerce but also provides insights into innovative business strategies that prioritize customer satisfaction and engagement. Enjoy!
Listen to the episode right here or subscribe to Commerce Famous on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast player
Shifting Marketing Strategies: "We shifted all the budgets into content because within our experience with the last two years, we recognized that the only way to get new customers is having happy customers, getting good solutions for these customers, and also be able to maintain these customers." - Sarah Lang
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Transcript of Commerce Famous episode 18, an interview with Sarah Lang
Ben Marks: Hey everyone, welcome to the Commerce Famous podcast. I'm your host Ben Marks, and with me today is Sarah Lang, founder and CEO of Hob by Horse, a Germany based e commerce agency with some really interesting ideas about how to approach the challenges that merchants face these days. Hob by Horse are recently coming into the US market and we are happy to have Sarah with us. Sarah, welcome to Commerce Famous podcast. Sarah Lang: Thanks Ben. I'm really happy to be here today. Thank you for the invitation. And I'm really curious about you. Ben Marks: Know, I'm glad you bring that up because I brought you here to talk. I was reminiscing a little bit as I was going through how about Hob By Horse's website and your own personal experience? So looking through your cv, it seems like you've been operating in and around this industry, but you've had different roles in this industry over the years. Would you care to kind of talk about your start in ecommerce? Because it looks like, if I remember correctly, you moved from director level at a company all the way up into basically kind of running the show. What was that like? Sarah Lang: Yeah, amazing, to be honest. So I started initially as an interim manager in a company in southern Germany which produced car seats. And for that company I had the opportunity to be part of a digitalization team. And in one of the projects, we created the very first online shop they ever had. And that was quite amazing to be part of that. You could already see how everything works. We did all on our own, so quite of an experience we gained and with that we also had the opportunity to learn a lot, also to do a lot of mistakes. But I think that is part of the process, especially to get better. Sarah Lang: And yeah, that was the start. After that, I joined an agency in northern Germany as the director of e commerce. And in the beginning there was only shopware five and no shopper six. In any case, it was quite special to cope with that one. And I'm really, really happy about Shopware 6 now. Ben Marks: So are we. Sarah Lang: Yeah, it's amazing. It's great. And yeah, we've been in Shopware only agency before. We're shopware only agency now. And I'm totally convicted by the system. I love it. This was my first steps. At first, we had really small clients in the previous agency, and with founding my own agency, we started to gain new market, which were huge clients, really huge clients. Sarah Lang: And that's what we do within the last two years, it works really well. And now we expand to different other countries, so us as well as Italy or Belgium. Ben Marks: Okay, well, and that kind of mirrors a little bit of the shopware. Geographical. It's, it's always lovely to speak with agency founders. As you and I were just chatting about before we hit record, I got my start out in the agency world back in 2008, the ecommerce agency world back in 2008. And it's been interesting watching this industry grow up. And I mean, I think your time at mixed creations, the industry, especially the industry of like, you know, really properly customizable commerce, was, was somewhat mature. I mean, maybe, you know, sort of late teenage years, right? When, when you, when you think about where we were in 2013, commodity computing had come along, so if you wanted to put things in the cloud, you could. But a lot of the tools and resources that existed back then may have even been created before that was a thing. Ben Marks: So it was still a pretty transitory period there, as opposed to how it is now, right, where things are really quite mature. And depending on the approach you want to take, the tools that you want to use, you can rely that they probably do what they do very well. But you all have stuck with Shopware as a solution. And that is one approach in this place, allowing yourself to focus, go deep on what you can build. And your client roster is impressive. I mean, I saw a couple of names I know there like Red Bull, and I'm actually really interested to know, when you are evaluating customers, how big is your team? How big is the collective brain at Hob by Horse? I'm sorry, I should point out that you all actually market yourselves as there are no freelancers, you have employees, you are doing everything in house, and that's a really expensive level of service to maintain when you have competing agencies who can get labor on the cheap, which does not necessarily mean bad, but it's a very different thing when you have everything in house. So I'd love to know how you all approach projects with your four plus years of experience, having founded this agency and where you think things are headed, and maybe why you think Shopware is a great solution. Sarah Lang \[00:06:27\]: I'll start with the part where the clients came from. Ben Marks \[00:06:30\]: Okay. Sarah Lang \[00:06:31\]: Because I think it's really special. So in the beginning of this year, we cut all our marketing spendings to zero. Ben Marks \[00:06:40\]: Wow. Sarah Lang \[00:06:41\]: We don't do any Google Ads or any social ads. We don't do any paid ads at the moment. We shifted all the budgets into content because within our experience with the last two years, we recognized that the only way to get new customers is having happy customers, getting good solutions for these customers, and also be able to maintain these customers really good. That's our main focus. And the second topic is content, qualitative, great content, which we spread via LinkedIn, which we give to our clients we have now to help them satisfy any needs, to help them grow. And this is our first part, which is really important for us. Moreover, we consult. We don't do just any kind of developing of an online shop and then we're done. Sarah Lang \[00:07:44\]: We're always there to consult our clients and to help them. So I for myself, love the user experience part. I'm huge fan of a lot of different usability testings as well. And so we do surveys within each project, not only with our clients, but also with the customers of our clients to really get to the ground, to really understand what do we need to develop. And therefore we need to be really honest. So, for example, last week we declined a project which was six figures project, but the system wasn't right, it wasn't the quite good fit. And also our developers told us we can do that, but the client can't be satisfied with the solution we have or the solution they want isn't available in that kind of software. And sometimes that hurts really much to get this call and give the client the information. Sarah Lang \[00:08:56\]: We're not the right fit, but if we do so, we are the honest ones. And I think that's important. That's most important. And I want to be the honest one because they can trust in us. And if there is another project, they will trust in us again. And I believe that very much so. This is my holy grail. Ben Marks \[00:09:18\]: And therefore I think that's really important just philosophically. Now, I want to be clear to everyone listening, we had zero conversation along these lines before this, but it makes me, I feel great hearing you describe this process. I think for the corner of the large corner of the ecommerce marketplace, where the off the shelf like SaaS solutions maybe don't have the best fit, or sometimes do have the best fit. Sarah Lang \[00:09:58\]: As. Ben Marks \[00:09:58\]: An agency, you have to figure out of the tools that we know, and in your case, it's the one tool that you choose to use. Are we going to be satisfied with the level of work that we can deliver, do we think that the customer is going to be satisfied? But I think as an agency specializing in a single platform, if you can bring that to bear. Yes, I realize with your CEO hat on that revenue is always attractive. Right. But, you know, the cost of taking on a project that you shouldn't, I mean, in the short term, it's a lot of stress. It can be pretty demotivating for a team to be asked to use a solution that they know doesn't fit. And then in the long term, the chances of true long term happiness, like really positive net promoter scores, both for the tool that you use and for your services, it's not worth it to take on these ill fitting solutions. So honestly, I have to endorse that as well as the right approach. Ben Marks \[00:11:10\]: And I think it's not only just a great approach for your company, it's a great approach for the industry, because in the end, you're making sure that this prospective customer is going to go out and they're going to find the right fit for them. And you never know, they may come back just based on the strength of that alone. That's really commendable. Was that something that you knew philosophically coming into this, or was this something that you decided to do because it just was the right thing to do? Sarah Lang \[00:11:40\]: So, Hopper Horace is organized, holocratic, which means our teams also have the opportunity to have a lot of opinion if they want to. They do not need to, but they can if they want to. And therefore, we also asked them if there's a new client's project, what they think about the project. And with the whole team, we decided that this isn't quite a good fit. And then we had a workshop with the client and we told them, we can do it, but we don't think it's your right fit. We would recommend to go somewhere else and to do something else. And I think that's also really important to take your team with you, because we build partnerships with our clients and our teams need to work next to each other really close to get these huge projects done. Some of our projects takes one, two, three years to get them done and have first launch project. Sarah Lang \[00:12:47\]: And with that in mind, we need a fair, honest and good communications communication between the teams as well. And therefore the teams must fit. They have to. There is no other option. We have and therefore our team has always the opportunity to give some kind of a v two for any project and tell them it didn't work or I have a bad gut feeling. It's also happened to us, but it works. So it also works for the clients. We had clients, we didn't recommend a project or we told them they should not follow the project agreement and stopped it, and they came back with other projects because they trust us. Sarah Lang \[00:13:39\]: And I think distrust is really important. And you mentioned before that our team is only with us, so we do not have any freelancers, et cetera. And in our opinion, these teams are really strong because they know each other so well and they know each other really, really good because they work along. Some of them are here. So we bought it. It was a carve out from another agency, and some of our employees are here since 2005, 2008. So they cried long with us, and I want them to stay. I'm proud of them because they're with us and of their knowledge and their experience, and we want to keep that as good and as long as we can, and therefore we build around our teams. Female Narrator \[00:14:32\]: Commerce famous is proudly presented by Shopware, the leading open source ecommerce platform for midmarket and lower enterprise merchants. More than 50,000 clients already process over $25 billion in annual GMV through Shopware. Find out more about Shopware and the best value in [ecommerce@shopware.com](mailto:ecommerce@shopware.com). Ben Marks \[00:14:51\]: Well, I noticed, so this approach lends itself to, you're going to be trusted by brands that maybe have had some difficulties with the previous platform that was chosen for them or their working relationship with an agency prior to their relationship with you. And I noticed that actually on the Hob By Horse website, you specifically call out what we would call turnover work, essentially, where a project or a project relationship has gone sideways and the merchant honestly is in a bad way, probably operationally. They're feeling really stuck, encumbered, or they literally may be losing revenue because of poor performance or poor functionality. And I think that is a hallmark of a true relationship focused agency when you can say, hey, people come to us not just for our initial expertise, but they also come to us when they're in trouble and we're willing to jump into that situation and make things right. What's the process there, I guess, for deciding that when you're literally opting into a messy situation? So how do you evaluate those opportunities? And then I don't know if you can speak to some of the really, this survey approach I'd love to talk about for a second. Do you get in there with user surveys and are you asking their customers and their operations folks about things? Sarah Lang \[00:16:29\]: So we had such kind of a project last year, and I think, first, it's really important to say there are always two sides. So if someone comes to us and tell us we've got such a bad agency, nothing works with them, honestly. Yeah, could be. But there are always two sides. And also the agency has a side. And I think agencies are often the one where the fault will be searched for, but that's not always the right conclusion. And we don't want to get any other agency in a bad way or something like that. I'm happy for every agency we have because there will always be the moment where a client wants to change or wants any change in their agency segment they have, and that's fine. Sarah Lang \[00:17:25\]: And there will always be a switch between the agencies. That's also fine. That is also good because they can learn new things. Maybe they bring also new things. That's good at first. That's good. So we had one client where we only did a usability survey for them, and they have a good agency and they love their agency. And I think that's great. Sarah Lang \[00:17:49\]: What's better than having a good partnership? That's fine. But they needed new input because it didn't work like they would like to have it. So we did some kind of usability testings. They had some issues with special categories within their shop, and we asked people and consumers about the shop, about how the filters work, et cetera, et cetera. And, for example, they had a lot of cups in the shop, but it wasn't clear if the cups are dishwasher safe or aren't they dishwasher safe? Which was a huge issue for the consumer, which was totally clear for the client because they told us everything is dishwasher safe? And we're like, yeah, you know that. But your consumers didn't know it, and they don't buy it because they're scared of that. And it was really funny because they also sell wine glasses. And I have these wine glasses at home, and I wasn't sure as well how to handle that because they're so thin. Sarah Lang \[00:18:58\]: And I asked them within the first meeting, are they dishwasher safe? And they were like, yeah, they are. It's really good. And I was like, hey, that's great. I'll try it. So I also tried the dishwasher safeness on my own before communicating it, and it worked really well. And I think it's always important. People search for their problems. They never search for any solutions, and we need to get them with their problem and not with the solution, because if they know the solution, they won't search for anything. Sarah Lang \[00:19:35\]: So we turned the shop around. And we communicated the problems, like, aren't you sure if your glasses are dishwasher safe or you can go this way, and we show you what happens. And we built landing pages about that stuff, which helped them. And then they took this, I think it was 150 pages of conclusion we had in the end with all surveys, with expert talks, et cetera. And we gave it to them, and they gave it to their agency. And that's also fine. That's good. So the agency has a lot of work. Sarah Lang \[00:20:12\]: Great. They can proceed and they can race, and they can get to their goals and get everything done. And we also did a good job. And I think that's quite a good mix. And therefore, yeah, we jump in, but we try to jump in to fix it so they can go their way. If they then want to come to us, it's also fine. We're happy about that. But that's not our initial thought. Ben Marks \[00:20:40\]: I think there's a few lessons to pull out of there, right. To pull out of the story that you just told. And that is, I was always fascinated, and maybe you are, too, by you have these successful businesses coming to you, and then you've realized that there are aspects of their business that they fundamentally don't understand. But the key there is taking that consultative approach, assuming nothing but just going out to validate and saying, okay, what do people know? What do they not know? And then you're absolutely right, there can be, and I have known some great agencies that even had a good working relationship with a client for a while. But then, for reasons that probably only the two of them would know, the relationship sours or just, it's not in the right direction anymore. I guess probably the corollary lesson there is, in the end, it doesn't matter that you would never speak down about another agency, because that's not your relationship. And all you can do is provide your level of service and your expertise going forward. But it underscores this consultative approach that a Hob By Horse take. Ben Marks \[00:22:04\]: Before we start to wrap things up here, I have to ask, hob by horse, how does a german agency. I grew up riding horses. How does a german agency come to be named hob by Horse? Sarah Lang \[00:22:22\]: Yes, I can help with that. To be honest, at first, quite funny. I'm totally allergic to any kind of horse. Ben Marks \[00:22:28\]: Me too. Sarah Lang \[00:22:31\]: I'm not really keen with that at all. So at first we thought about what kind of agency we want to be. And especially in Germany, people are always really clear and transparent, and everything needs to be seen as it is. And also names need to be clear. But my business partner and I thought about being someone nobody knows exactly who they are, what they are doing. And we tried a totally different approach with that, because every agency is something with ecommerce or something with it or Internet, et cetera. And we wanted to be outstanding, but in a funny way, because both of us are also. We're funny, we're relaxed. Sarah Lang \[00:23:24\]: We love to have good partnerships. We love, everything works great, and we're just a little bit flexible and told us, okay, we search for something nobody understands, they need to ask us, and therefore, we always need. So always we know what is the first introduction or part of the first communication we have with an interesting client. And it works really well, to be honest. So it's one of the first questions we hear every time. So I'm initially from South Germany, Osnabrück. And so the thing I connect with Osnabrück are the hob by horses. Moreover, the german translation of hob by horses is Steckenpferd. Sarah Lang \[00:24:13\]: And Steckenpferd has two meanings in Germany. So at first, the hob by horse, but in the second way, it's thing where your passion goes. It's that thing where you're good in, where you're thriving, where you love to do and you parry, and everything goes in that. And therefore, we thought that is quite a good fit. But hobby, especially in Germany, is really a free time word. So we needed to change it a little bit. So we changed it to hop by horse. But to be honest, especially in shopware context, at the moment, the most known word I heard from us is you are the ones with the pink logo. Sarah Lang \[00:25:03\]: It worked. But also we have some kind of different ways as well. Ben Marks \[00:25:09\]: How would you say that out in German? That's interesting. So this is kind of the top of your funnel, right? When you're finding a new customer, it's just like, well, are they interested enough? Are they curious enough to ask about the name? Are they just drowning? And they just take whatever recommendation goes their way? I like this approach. I like having fun with, you know, I get to visit Munster every so often because it's like the next biggest city over from shipping, where shopware is headquartered, where I'm headed, actually, this region, this region of Germany, it's pleasantly quaint, and you don't always expect to find world class companies having residents and having people there. But it is the case that a lot of history and a lot of modern history, including e commerce, is coming from there. And right before we close up for the close out, the episode, what do you see happening this year? And actually, I wanted to ask you specifically about your survey audience driven content approach, because sometimes when I'm chatting with guests here, I'll look up some things in the background just to get some additional context. And one of the things that I've noticed is, of course, if you're searching in, if you're googling searching anything in Google here, you get this generative AI. You basically get just a summary that is Google's AI's interpretation of probably the top ten results or something. What do you think is the future for content in a content driven approach? When content is. Ben Marks \[00:27:00\]: I think content in some ways has been commodified, but not to the degree that it is a commodity now, because anyone can at least generate content, I think you still have to have a little bit of understanding so that the content is actually meaningful. But content is going to be an interesting battleground or competitive space, not just in our industry, but for other industries. So where do you see content going as? It sounds like one of the preeminent agencies building out some cool content for your customer. Sarah Lang \[00:27:44\]: Yes, in my opinion, it's not only the content, it's the target group where the content is made for. So everybody can create great content, especially with AI. We have, to be honest, limitless opportunities at the moment. But it's not worth it all if we still don't know who needs it and what are the issues they are searching for. And therefore, we're quite big in doing surveys, we do a lot of interviews with consumers. It's one of our first step in each project to have communication and to ask the consumers what they do. And you need to be an expert also in asking, because everybody can ask the question, what's your problem? But nobody will tell you their real problems, but only the obvious ones. And we want to know the problems that aren't obvious. Sarah Lang \[00:28:52\]: And there's still a long way in really digitalizing the world, because at the moment we just make printed processes in a digital way, but we do not optimize digitalized. And that's quite huge topic for us this year. Moreover, we do a lot of content on our own, for LinkedIn, for our own website, et cetera, because we cutted the budgets and shifted it. We also got some new employees in that area. They only there for research, they're only there for creating that content. Of course, with the help of AI. It's always like that, but that's the last point. So getting things done in a text version or getting things done in a great kind of statistic, that's things we do with AI, but asking the right questions and getting the right information out of it, at least now, couldn't be done by an AI. Ben Marks \[00:30:00\]: And that's something it clicked for me as you were going into your explanation, and it's absolutely right. There is no way anytime soon that AI is going to be able to figure out for a glassware company that their customers don't actually know whether the glasses are dishwasher safe or not. Just one example of maybe how we're not entirely all doomed by our AI future, at least in the near future. Well, I think that takes us right up to the end of the podcast episode. So, Sarah, it's been a pleasure speaking with you. I reserve the right to come back, though. I think it'd be really interesting to visit some of this survey process, maybe without divulging all of your trade secrets, but I think there's a lot to be learned from there. I know we've done some work with a media company, Future commerce, that I think their ability to assess a space and then actually build, ask the right questions, it ends up providing a lot of value. Ben Marks \[00:31:16\]: And I'm a huge fan of the vendors in the space who provide so much value. So I'm really excited that you all are here in the shopware world, and I'm really excited that you're also spending some time in the US. So I look forward to future conversations with you. Sarah Lank, CEO of Hob By Horse thank you very much. Thanks.
